Mortgage Servicing Fraud
occurs post loan origination when mortgage servicers use false statements and book-keeping entries, fabricated assignments, forged signatures and utter counterfeit intangible Notes to take a homeowner's property and equity.
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Hey guys,

I wanted to put this out here.  We have a broad group that have similar issues. 

I just finished this book, The FairTax Book by Neal Boortz and John Linder, R. Georgia and I find that it may be something this group might want to ponder and discuss.  To me, it appears to have some very good ideas that would help the workers of our country. 

Greg, have you read this?  It does away with the IRS, the lobbyist, maybe the Fed.  It puts more of our money in our pockets and it brings corporations home.

It alleviates every business decision that is made according to tax strategies.  It brings prices down.

For anyone that might think I have an agenda, I do not.  I'm conservative and I'm extremely disappointed with this administration.  I'm not Republican or Democrat.

Hope this isn't too far off topic but in my opinion, it has merit.  We can get rid of a lot of what is wrong with this.  IMHO

Bob
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srsd

Bob,  it sounds very interesting.  I am for it.....I am like you neither nor on the party.  It seems like our country has gone to "hell in a handbag" and we all need to try to fix it because our children will have to deal with this mess and probably worse if something isn`t done.  Life use to be so simeple 20 years ago....what happened?? what went wrong??

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arkygirl
Isn't this tax levied on EVERYTHING that users consume? We will pay it on doctors visits, legal and accounting services, beauty parlor visits, barber visits, food, fuel, telephone bills, etc.? What about home sales; taxed? Autos?

If this is so, the average tax rate when all taxes are figured (still have to pay state and local taxes don't forget) will probably run about 58%. The childless couple or single person will ultimately pay much less than the couple with five children as this tax will have to paid on all those children's needs.

Then there are those pesky prebates or rebates, whatever they are calling them this week. There will still be a government office dealing with that issue. It may not be called the IRS anymore; FairTax Office sounds better anyway. But FairTax guys may decide that you don't qualify for a "prebate" that you thought you might qualify for thus ruining your budget. We will simply replace one type of onerous paperwork with another.

Corporations have already discovered the joys of dirt cheap overseas sweatshop labor that generates more profit for them. I cannot imagine a stampede to open or keep factories in the US where they have to deal with pensions, health insurance, OSHA, and all the rest. They will continue to move to and operate overseas where if a worker dies in the factory they are simply dragged away and another slave plugged in to replace them. No muss, no fuss. This tax plan will not change that behavior.

How will this plan change the behavior of lobbyists? The government will keep in place a hidden method of granting welfare to corporations just like it does now. It seems that there will still be needs for lobbyists. Banks will still want legislation written to fulfill their own desires and that will require lobbyists. Insurance companies will want to lobby for laws to suit them. I cannot see how this will do away with lobbyists.

We had a governor that discovered that giving all homeowners a real estate homestead exemption of $300.00 a year and replacing it with a 1% state sales tax increase made the state's coffers swell beyond his wildest dreams. He is a FairTax advocate to this day. I know that the sales tax increase costs me way more in a year (groceries are still taxed here) than I am saving with the homestead exemption. This tax swap was also made in the name of  "fairness for all". What it turned out to be was "more money from all".

The "FairTax" moniker was dreamed up much in the same way as the bankers dreamed up the name "Federal Reserve Bank"; it is deceptive. On the face it looks good, consume less, pay less. People with children are forced to consume more or be jailed for child abuse. In spite of ourselves, all of us are at times forced to consume more than usual and it seems that this tax will make those unexpected things really bite us hard.

I suppose the best way to figure it out is to figure your yearly expenditures for discretionary spending (food, fuel, clothes, shoes, haircuts; all of it) and multiply it by the proposed tax rate (38%?), then add your state and local taxes. You may be shocked to realize what a loaf of bread or a gallon of gasoline will cost you under this plan....ouch!

FairTax is not really connected to any hidden agenda or political alliance. It has been out there for awhile. I don't really want to be adversarial about it or fight about it as I am not a tax expert. It just seems like one of those issues that requires scraping off of the lipstick so you can really examine the pig underneath it. I have read pro and con about it...just wanted to share what exchanging a flat rate tax for a consumption tax did here. It costs more in my daily life and I cannot see that this won't do the same nationwide.
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Bob glad to see your still here and no I have not read the book but am familiar with the concept. With the caveats such as Arkygirl outlined I am in very strong favor of the fair tax. I am bitterly opposed to the progressive tax rate it was sold as promoting social justice and that a far as I am concerned is pure bull.

The progressive tax rate is central plank of Marx and it was designed to take wealth and power from the middle and upper middle class and transfer it to the working class, but secretly leave the elites in control.  It was sponsored by the British imperialist Engels and strongly embraced by the bankers who saw it as great tool to create debt, polarization and control the middle class.

Here is who it helps, the top one percent or less because the middle and upper middle class are assessed punitive damages for being productive and successful  and  a huge share of personal income taxes merely goes to pay debt servicing .

So what do the poor gain in the long run absolutely nothing. In the short run they may get government subsidies but  eventually everyone will have no choice  but to work for a multinational corporation or the government.

How can you have a country and people that gains wealth and freedom if they are punished for producing and rewarded for spending. This point can be argued philosophically in terms of social justice, a safety net or bridging the gap between rich and poor but it is in fact codified in to tax law, does no such thing in real life and philosophically that is what it was designed to do and is doing.

What really does this have to do with ms fraud I think just about everything at the root level many people think of the money as money and taxes are used to pay government bills.

The IRS/Federal reserve were formed the same year and work hand in hand.
As far as mortgages lets look at the interest rate deduction what does that do, well provides an incentive for people to take out the biggest home loan they can to write off the interest and allows the price to rise and allows the bizarre and irrational concept of paying triple the price of a home over 30 years.

It's really an unnatural thing to do. Picture a cave man spending thirty years building a home and then going out and providing for and raising a family well he'd be might hungry by the time he got around to hunting and foraging all the gray hair and lack of teeth would not make him and appealing prospect to cave women either.

What else does the IRS/Fed model have to do with ms fraud a lot really under the fractional reserve system lender lend out fractional reserve money that is not theirs.
They have motive to lend out as much of our money as they can to get the highest possible return rate this is actually socialism because it can exist only as government sponsored monopoly.

The whole point behind free market capitalism in the first place was to allow common people to own property and reward those who are productive and save
and to prevent monopolies and dictatorships.

Now we see the government has granted special privileges to a handful  to engage in fractional reserve lending and we have monetized debt which encourages reckless speculation with other peoples money and fraud.

So the fair tax is potentially a fantastic way to restore the social ladder allowing you to climb from poor to rich but it must be weighed against government spending and the monetary system.

I don't agree with any type of subsidies in the long run because it cuts social responsibility and compassion out of the picture and creates a problem which has no need to exist.

What about physically and mentally handicapped people and those who have run into hard times? That's where I think we can build social responsibility and compassion though people not a check from an uncaring government bureaucracy.

Can we stop medicade, welfare, housing etc. cold turkey absolutely not but we need a transition to end a problem that has no need to exist. People get depressed, angry
and lose self worth when they are dependent and no one cares about them. The current tax code literally pays people to do this though many do not see it that way.

Another thing our tax code does is encourage businesses to move overseas and they actually get tax breaks for doing so that is positively treasonous as far as I'm concerned.

So the fair tax is fantastic thing to consider but there are other variables that must be considered.

The one concern I have with all these plans is that the system is on the edge of collapsing already and the general public may blame a new sound economic or monetary policy as creating the problem loose faith and go back to the old system that was perceived as working better. We see this in the Soviet union where people are willing to lose freedom to regain a powerful leader and status.

The publics eduction and understanding of the financial and taxation system is relatively limited and even the most educated Wall street investors tend to follow a heard mentality let alone millions of starving people who don't care about any thing other than getting though the next day.

In an economic emergency it is very easy to implement fascism, communism, martial law or dictatorships because the people panic and hope the government can bail them out.

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Ed Cage

No Bob in my view it is not off topic in that it affects all of us who have suffered because of oversized government and lazy bureaucrats; not to mention cosmetic legislation like the recent highly misleading and disappointing mortgage "freeze" bill which helps only a small fraction of homeowners exploited by mortgage serving fraud.

 

Is the Fair Tax similar to US Rep. Dick Armey's (R –TX) previous Flat Tax Proposal that also "eliminated the IRS?"

 

Not being argumentative Bob but…

How will it bring jobs home to America?  Here I don't see a connection Bob.. That problem was largely driven by Unions who pushed the envelope too far and shareholders who demand profits.. Even John Kerry who had Union support had most of his wife’s estimated 60 Heinz factories in foreign countries!  Foreign laborers who are becoming more and more competent in all areas of manufacturing, trade and commerce will work for a tiny fraction of what US workers earn. I think that problem is here to stay.. (Problema Grande.)

 

Why not post an outline of what this Fair Tax plan entails?  

 

Skeptical but open-minded,
Ed Cage
Plano Texas
972-596-4363
ecagetx@tx.rr.com




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Hey,

Arky, you need to read the book.  I got it because I was skeptical until I read and heard who was against it.  I can answer your questions and statements but the book is an excellent read and answers your questions better than I can.

I'm attaching some comments from the fairtax.org site.

AG, think about all the illegal money that taxes aren't being paid on.  This would bring additional tax revenues into the system. 

If no corporate taxes (which literally none are paid now) were removed, these wealthy people that buy their expensive toys out of country could buy them here and more revenue would be collected.

Sales tax is already in place.  No FairTax Office.  States would collect.

Ed, get the book.  You will be pleased you did.  I will try to find time tomorrow to do a quick run on some of the cause and effects.

Guys, I'm appreciative of your responses.  I was hoping you would see that this is really on topic in regards to "our" money. 

Greg, this is your part of the answer to our monetary system.  Get the book. 

This group could make a difference.  If ya'll see it may be good you'll tell me.  If there is a problem you'll tell me.  If this is good, this group could make a difference.


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Fair Tax Advocates Speak Up for Their Plan

Wall Street Journal
December 10, 2007; Page A17

The FairTax is not just another sales tax but rather is a sales tax that would replace all the IRS taxes and payroll taxes, and that is why the rate is expressed as an inclusive rate -- the same inclusive way as the taxes it replaces.

The problem you mention ("The Huckabee Contradiction," Review & Outlook, Dec. 5) regarding the difficulty of repealing the 16th Amendment and winding up with both an income tax and the FairTax does not hold water -- nothing is stopping Congress right now from enacting the FairTax immediately resulting in both taxes being in place.

My attraction and dedication to your paper over the past 40 years is based on your support for liberty for America. Over this time I have read countless editorials in which you expose all of the flaws of our IRS tax system and its inevitable political class warfare starting with "soak the rich."

Doug Hartlove
Somerville, N.J.

Collecting taxes at the retail level is already in place and much more easily monitored by the states. Compare that to our current system and think how it would reduce enforcement. In addition, with point of sale collection you don't have to be a citizen nor declare how you got the money. If you spend it, we collect at the time. How simple is that?

Joe Alsenz
Grove, Okla.

Complicated rebate system? "The monthly prebate check is calculated by multiplying the annual poverty level spending published each year by the Department of Health and Human Services times the FairTax rate and dividing by twelve."

Don Venardos
Thousand Oaks, Calif.

How about the idea of being able to export goods to other countries with no embedded taxes, allowing manufacturing in this country to export goods instantly more than 20% cheaper.

Imagine if you were an international business, and you saw that you could do business in this country with no income tax on your business, or no tax on your capital. Companies which have left this country, partially due to our oppressive income tax, would be knocking the door down to get back in. We would have more jobs, higher wages, and would restore the manufacturing base we once had in this country.

Mickey Lattimore
Myrtle Beach, S.C.

First and foremost, the FairTax will devolve power from Washington. No longer would tax money be the wellspring of special favors. Will Congress find ways to hoodwink the people? Of course, but it will be much, much harder.

Rodger Gamblin
Dayton, Ohio

Your editorial board is too young to remember the repeal of the 18th Amendment, but I remember it. Can you assert with a straight face that complying with the myriad complexities of the income tax is less unpopular than was National Prohibition?

George Gerard

 

Go to the fairtax.org site.  Do some reading.


Best,
Bob 


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anon2

This is way OT but a sales tax always works out to a tax on the poor.

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Still Fighting
Isn't this similar to what Ron Paul is proposing?
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As far as sales tax being a tax on the poor that's the bs the bankers that back the debt and get rich off of interest and monetary manipulation want you to believe it's divide and conquer strategy and pits one group against the other.

In the end everyone other than the super rich loose from progressive tax rates schemes sold as reducing the burden on the poor.

We pay 400 billion a year in servicing the debt and the number keeps growing. People are so focused on the argument about rich paying their fair share and the poor needing help they forget all about the money wasted in interest monetary manipulation and all our jobs and manufacturing going overseas and forget the so-called rich are the middle and upper middle class the mom and pop businesses and and small to medium sized companies. We really can't based our economy on spending that's ludicrous and the foreign countries servicing or debt and selling us goods and services will get sick and tired of us what reason is there for them to support us and provide our needs at the same time.

Eventually and it's has been progressively happening other countries will just plain say look we hold all the cards oil, money, goods and services and you must bow to our demands. We certainly could not defend ourselves in large scale war push comes to shove if we were cut of from resources look at all the foreign products we are dependent on even for our military which should never have been allowed.

We have been lied to for so long we the truth sounds off the wall. That's why when you hear sound tax and monetary policies they sound like extremism and anarchy.

The comments you hear in opposition to sound money and tax policies are extremism millions will die without social services, the entire economy will collapse because fractional reserve money and derivatives are hundreds perhaps thousands of times greater than a hard money economy could support, the roads and bridges would fall apart the schools would all close, we would have no military all sorts of non-sense that has no basis in fact.

Here is the only cold hard reality is the debt based economy has to hit a finite resource limit and/or collapse on itself. Also a dependent population is never truly free, and a government with a deficit has to answer to those who finance it.

A leveraged debt based economy is ripe for corruption and insider control and profiteering. The fed really could zero out all our accounts tomorrow the point may not be so much would they do that is why do you want to give such a small group of people who sets policies and keeps the meetings secret.

As far as Ron Paul his solutions are very sophisticated and comprehensive  and integrate with  government spending, social needs, military spending, the monetary system and taxes.

What he wants to do is wean off the Federal reserve by establishing a savings based economy parallel to the Fed and get rid of the deficit and transfer the vast wealth being wasted in interest payments, inflation, and government red tape back to the people. The middle and upper middle class could keep their wealth and use it to provide us with jobs and we would have an economic ladder to climb no more rich v poor division. The poor will have for more options and higher wages. Will some be rich and some poor sure but people will no longer be trapped with  few options. As far as illegal immigrants then they will no longer be subsidized.

Companies will have far more reason to stay here and be more profitable.

Basically it's a logical sustainable system which is inherently fair. Since everyone will have more money we can reestablish a practical support system for for everyone which is voluntary not mandated by the government and tax code.

It's all based on proven sound principles that have worked before.

All he is doing is handing the  government back to the people and letting them keep what they earn.

We can see now the rampant property theft the government allows in terms of ms fraud it's not a bad dream and  it won't get any better unless we change things.
We just need to let go of our fears and make things work out.
 


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Hey Guys,

I'm not here to disagree or argue.  I will suggest that most of you are commenting without reading the book.

I am skeptical of most everything.  If this is OT, I apologize but please, read the book!

Bob
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arkygirl
This is a fascinating subject. I have gone to the Americans for Fair Taxation website and done some reading and will try to locate the book soon. They have a fairly good info page here and anyone can link to the FAQ:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main

The tax rate would be 23% at the onset, not 38%. It is 23% that turns into a 30% actual at the retail counter. (Look at the site for the explanation of that one). I could not locate anything that would lock that rate at 23% for any length of time. What would keep the rates from being raised very soon?

This statement bothers me: "AG, think about all the illegal money that taxes aren't being paid on.  This would bring additional tax revenues into the system."

There is no "illegal" money. Or rather, it is all illegal because it is just paper without backing with an arbitrary value assigned to it. Monopoly money gone wild.

I don't think the neighborhood "unlicensed pharmacist" is going to sign up to collect and send in these taxes. He/she will just continue to sell his/her "product". At the same time this system will allow that "unlicensed pharmacist" to accrue vast sums of money, all of it tax free until he or she spends it. He or she may opt to spend it overseas, neatly dodging the tax. This is money that would remain under the radar for a large part.

This will also allow banks and corporations to accrue huge sums of money tax-free. None of it will be taxed unless the bank spends it within the U.S. Same scenario; if the banks and corporations opt to spend their profits overseas there will be no U.S. taxes levied on that money. This seems as though it would further spur the rush to stop developing anything in America and just keep moving money into overseas development. Cheap labor will be the incentive and it seems that this country would bleed cash.

The rebate program. The poverty level is arrived at by using government figures. What is to keep the government from at some point claiming that if you make over $100.00 a year that you are above poverty level? I don't trust government figures, period. They are manipulated to the government's own ends. The government has been telling us how good the economy is for years while the "real" people out here were staggering under rising food, fuel and utility costs. Oh, the government doesn't use volatile item figures in their reports even though those are the basics that keep us all alive.

There have been some big time gangsters who were brought down through Tax laws rather then criminal charges. I can see businesses changing more to a barter system where services rather than goods or money are exchanged..."I will paint your house if you will fix my car" type arrangements. I could find nothing about barter arrangements on the website. Does the book address that?

The FairTax does not preclude that Americans winding up with this consumption tax AND an income or value added tax later on. Simply dismantling the IRS will not keep them from coming back for an income tax in the future. If people stop spending money for whatever reason, the government will still need revenues and it will get them by one method or another.

Taxes are always a double-edged sword. While I am not happy with the system in place right now, my gut tells me this may not be the answer to our prayers, either. It may be moving in that direction but there are still some tweaks that could be applied. Maybe I am just another Sheeple afraid of change or maybe it is just that I don't trust the government not to screw this up for us, too. Or maybe there always has to be someone who takes the "opposing" view in any discussion, who sees loopholes and addresses them. Discussions are not necessarily arguments and I am not arguing here.

I will get this book at the first available opportunity to see if it can answer my questions. It is a fascinating subject and worth a look. Thanks for the heads up; I had heard of the FairTax  but didn't realize that there was a book available about this issue. ANYTHING to reform the mess we currently have is worth a hard look and a lot of discussion.

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Hey AG (A),

I suggest you read the book.  It will answer the questions you have brought to the table.

Illegal money, is money that drug dealers, anyone out of the normal arena, is what I was referencing.  If they live in the country, they will pay a consumption tax.

23% stays 23% due to the decreases in costs.  It is covered in the book.

Got to go to a wrestling match.

More later.  Thanks for the interest.  I'm not an easy sell. 

Bob
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